This interview is for “Hailing Hellions,” a Q&A series where I interview sex workers (or ex-sex workers) who have modeled for me and my Sex Positivity* book project. Today’s interview subject is Victoria Saix!
*The longer title being Sex Positivity versus Sex Coercion, or Gothic Communism: Liberating Sex Work under Capitalism through Iconoclastic Art (2023). Part of an overarching movement that connects sex positivity to what I call “Gothic (gay-anarcho) Communism,” Sex Positivity essentially provides a hybrid; i.e., one established between academic (Gothic, queer, game and Marxist) theories, and wherein applied theory towards universal liberation is achieved by challenging Capitalist Realism (the inability to imagine a world beyond Capitalism) at a grassroots level. To it, Gothic Communism specifically occurs through direct mutual worker action and informed intersectional solidarity relayed through Gothic poetics: BDSM, monsters, and kink, but specifically what I call “ludo-Gothic BDSM.” If you’re curious about the book and want to know more, the first four volumes (and additional information) are available for free (the series is non-profit) on my website’s 1-page promo.
General CW: BDSM, Gothic content and theatrics (e.g., rape play and death theatre), as well as sex worker abuse and bigotry of various kinds (variable per interview).
Specific CW: This interview in particular discusses sexual assault/use of the word “rape,” as well as intersex abuse (forced surgery).
Note: All images are of the model or myself unless otherwise stated.
Permissions: Any publicly available images are exhibited for purposes of education, transformation and critique, thus fall under Fair Use; private nude material and collabs with models are specifically shared with permission from the original model(s). For more details about artist permissions, refer to the book disclaimer.
Concerning Buggy Images: Sometimes the images on my site don’t always load and you get a little white-and-green placeholder symbol, instead. Sometimes I use a plugin for loading multiple images in one spot, called Envira Gallery, and not all of the images will load (resulting in blank white squares you can still right-click on). I‘ve optimized most of the images on my site, so I think it’s a server issue? Not sure. You should still be able to access the unloaded image by clicking on the placeholder/right-clicking on the white square (sometimes you have to delete the “?ssl=1” bit at the end of the url). Barring that, completed volumes will always contain all of the images, whose PDFs you can always download on my 1-page promo.
About the series: Like the book series it attaches to, “Hailing Hellions” aims to educate and critique; i.e., by raising awareness towards sex worker rights, but also gender-non-conformity through Gothic counterculture. This extends to gender identity (e.g., trans, enby or intersex) but also orientation and performance; i.e., BDSM and sex positivity through various Gothic theatrical roles that invite things beyond vanilla, heteronormative (thus conservative, reactionary and harmful) sexuality. I would consider this to be things like mommy dommes and consent-non-consent, breeding fantasies and heavy metal (e.g., Satanic material and the Gothic at large). Also, these questions are broader insofar as they cover wide praxial/poetic ideas and concepts. Regarding these, the opinions of the subject and myself are not identical, but often overlap through us collaborating together to raise awareness.
About the interviewee: Victoria is a friend of a friend; i.e., one of my metamour’s play partners from New Zealand and someone from the same Discord server (we fags stick together, on and offline). They’re intersex, and a past survival sex worker (and survivor of rape) who has since moved onto different kinds of work. They’re a super sweetie, and someone who has supported my work effusively insofar as I talk extensively about healing from rape by subverting it through BDSM, ludology and Gothic poetics (monsters and murder/rape theatre). Over the past year or so, their feedback and enthusiasm has been invaluable, as well as working and playing with them (whenever I’ve gotten the chance). Vic’s a class act and a total baddie (so tall and thicc)!
0. Persephone: Hi, everyone! My name is Persephone van der Waard. I’m a trans-woman erotic artist, sex worker, writer/author and researcher who specializes in cross-media studies; i.e., I have my independent PhD in Gothic poetics and ludo-Gothic BDSM (focusing on partially on Metroidvania).
Victoria, could you introduce yourself and share a little about yourself with our audience?
Victoria: Hello I’m Vincent or Victoria, but you can call me anything you want. I’m a 34-year old pan/ace guy from New Zealand who, for two years from 18-20, became a casual sex worker to help out my family with money as I was the only one who had a job at that point in my household.
I was living in the garage at that point, as there was not enough room in the house for me; i.e., as the youngest son from my mother’s first marriage and a constant reminder of the first family she had and the decision she made at my birth: born intersex and was made to develop into a boy as Mum ‘n Dad thought it might be a harder life as a 6’2 woman when I grew up. In any event, my mother was homeschooling my younger half brother and sister and my stepfather had lost his job over having asked his boss at the time to remove the nudie mags in the workshop toilets as it “wasn’t proper” for a work place.
I also have Autism and ADHD (undiagnosed despite MHP’s saying I had it but didn’t want to give me the label as it would make it harder for me as an adult). I managed to move out of home properly at 20 but had to fall back to living with my mum or older brother for the next 10 years after breaking up with my then-fiancé after her getting pregnant to another guy (my surgeries to help me develop made me sterile), who then laid a false rape claim against me that got easily disproven but the damage to my reputation had been done so I had to move cities and eventually change my name legally to protect myself and so I could still get work. So not much luck with relationships and being what society wanted of me, heh.
Over the last 4 years of not living with family, I did a year of counseling and then recovery from that. Since then, I have become more comfortable with myself; i.e., I have started dressing up as what could have been: if the coin had flipped the other way (hooray for finding Vicky). Also, I helped run the local Rainbow youth group before handing it back to the younger generation. It was around this time that a person on Twitter reposted a picture of me and I started a friendship with him, who then invited me into a Discord server in which I met you, Persephone.
1. Persephone: This book project views sex positivity as a liberating act. What does sex positivity mean to you? Illustrating mutual consent; i.e., can porn illustrate mutual consent when sex workers are constantly dehumanized by the profit motive and the status quo?
Victoria: Sex positivity to me means being able to be who and what you are and being free to do what you need to do without feeling shame for it, because we are beautiful creatures in this world and owe it to ourselves to be true. Society and the ones who push workers down and make them feel bad are just wrong and can’t understand the feeling and joy that comes from within while doing the work; i.e., being in the moment and feeling seen for a moment even if it is brief (raw, primal, chest-bursting pride and emotion: “I am a beast, hear me roar”).
Being dehumanized for the work just to get paid/for the need to get paid is not right; i.e., a dancer or an artist creating something using their body gets applauded and praised for it while a SW or S actor gets told, “okay get ready for the next shoot or client, you are nothing and will burn for this come reaping time.” And being made to feel filthy or lesser than because of it hurts on a level most people don’t know. I imagine there is some really good “agents” out there that do care for those workers and treat them right, but from what I’m seeing as the years go on is the content is getting more violent and dangerous as people are getting desensitized to everything in it. There does need to be informed and mutual consent for this line of work and protections in place and destigmatized socially as it is a needed career in a world; i.e., that is growing further apart and more online and less in person. People can go years or decades without the physical touch that they need to survive properly.
2. Persephone: In your mind, what is the biggest struggle facing sex workers today?
Victoria: The biggest struggle is being able to do the job safely like you can with most jobs, as it is still looked down upon; i.e., you getting blamed by society and the perception that if anything goes wrong that we invited it upon ourselves and there is nothing to protect ourselves legally in some places. There’s also the general perception that sex workers are lesser or deviant and unclean (if anything, we can be some of the cleanest people because we know the risks better than most), one where we are given the “eww” look if we tell anyone what we do (my experience, or as one of my friends calls me regularly: “slut”). They’ll ask what went wrong in your life? Did you even try to get a NORMAL job? I guess image factor is one of the main struggles; i.e., it is one of the oldest professions and should have a great amount of respect that goes to the workers who have chosen it. And as I said in the last question, the porn side of it getting filmed is getting more extreme in some cases; i.e., as you have to be doing something “exciting and new” just to get more views or purchases so you can survive on the sales.
3. Persephone: How do you feel about sex work being work, thus paying sex workers for their labor? This can be unions, but also their representations in media at large.
Victoria: Gods yes, it IS work; it has all the same things as a regular job: commute, uniform, paperwork, banking, meetings and office space (so to speak)! Most job places have different rates/charges for the work they do so why should sex work be any different? I.e., if it was to be legitimized as a proper profession and taxed (if you want to go that far—it should be tax-free like churches, as we are helping give comfort to the needy). And it does need to be seen in a better light by media and the stigma removed, as it is a normal thing to do and not dirty or vile (insert the Helen Lovejoy “think of the children” meme).
4. Persephone: What are your thoughts on Communism vs Capitalism using Gothic poetics? Can monsters be gay Commies?
Victoria: I don’t know much about the subject other than what I have read in your writings but from what I can understand the answer is: “Hell, yes! Gay monstrous Commies!”
5a. Persephone: What drew you to the project/interested you in working on it together with me?
Victoria: You are a lovely person who, in the time we have known each other, has made me feel seen and happier than I was a year ago. Your writing and art is phenomenal and I just love it; you have added some photos and info about me in some of your work and that has made me so happy that I am a small part of your awesome works. And I wanted to be involved because the way people like us are seen is horrible; we are just the same as everyone else—not lesser but equal (me feeling very much like September from Fringe, down to the little head tilt) and just trying to make it in this messed up world: one where society judges you on how shiny your stuff is. And as a slightly selfish thought: that by even having a picture of me in your books, that even if I perish a small part of me remains for someone to see that I existed at some point. But I mainly wanted to be involved because you are awesome, and your work is important and needed.
5b. Persephone: How has that experience been for you? Can you describe it a little?
Victoria: It has been wonderful, and I don’t feel rushed or made to feel stupid. Us doing the photoshoot was amazing. While a bit challenging at times, it felt good to accomplish something and to feel pride at the result was new for me. You are a lovely gentle person with a huge heart and soul. I would recommend you as a safe person to work with.
6. Persephone: If you feel comfortable talking about it, can you talk about being GNC? What does that mean to you?
Victoria: Admitting to myself—that it is ok to not conform and to enjoy when I am Victoria instead of Vincent—has been freeing. I think when I do I look good that gives me comfort; i.e., that I wish I had earlier in life during the times that I was trying to figure out why I felt WRONG in who I was: while looking at the girls and ladies who had the most fantastic dress sense I had ever seen, and wanting desperately for the power to shapeshift into them or swap bodies for even a moment just to feel beautiful and admired (was a very short chubby cheeked kid then tall skinny teen)! I still feel that way at my job (we have a few stunning goth chicks in my town that I would kill to be able to look as half as good as out in public) but then remembering what people see when they look at me can be rough. But I know now from personal time dressing up that I look better as a perceived woman and that brings comfort despite feeling robbed by my parents of that chance.
Being GNC can be fun. When someone tries to have a go at me and my response being “why is it a problem how I look? Are you scared of a color? Or is it the fact I’m making you feel something you haven’t before?” It can also hurt sometimes knowing what could have been; i.e., if my parents could have seen this future for me—to the point I’m silent-screaming at night because I feel like I’m being pulled apart by the being that is sitting on my back with its claws around my heart. But that is happening less now that I’m accepting me for me!
7. Persephone: What do you enjoy most about sex work? What got you started in it?
Victoria: I don’t really remember much of it, as I was able to separate mind from body for the most part. It was just a means of money coming in to help my family keep the house and food on the table. It was during that time that I figured out I was ace because, for me, it just felt mechanical and a means to an end. And being honest, I haven’t had sex in 13 years, so I wonder if I might like it now that I’m older and have come to terms with things.
What I did like was the feeling that I was in control of my body and that it wasn’t under another’s control—e.g., with me being raped at 13 by my first boyfriend and his friend—and that it was my choice; i.e., the feeling of having personal power and that, hey, I guess there IS something that is desirable about my body (I later realized I had a very twinkish body when I was younger. God I miss it)!
My most enjoyable times doing sex work were when I wasn’t needed for sex but just someone that the client could just talk to while doing cleaning of his house (was cheaper than a cleaner and better conversation). He mostly used me as a sounding board while he got stuff off of his chest and I helped him through a few things. I know that that aspect isn’t really sex work, but it felt nice that he had someone to take care of him even if it was for a little while.
What got me into sex work was my job at the time. It was offering me less hours (as it was after the new year), so I was asking people if they knew of any work going on anywhere in town and a guy asked if I had ever thought of “being a foot model” and said he would pay some money for some pics. I said ok, so we hopped in his car and drove to the local beach where he took some photos, then said I could earn an extra 50 if he could fuck me. I thought, “Why not? The last time I had no control but this time would be different. So, I said yes, and it became a regular thing a few times a week. He told a few others about me, and it went from there. Looking back on it, sooo much could have gone wrong over that 2-year period and I’m thankful that it didn’t. I know some others aren’t as lucky!
8. Persephone: Do you have a favorite piece of sex work that you’ve done, in terms of custom material?
Victoria: No, not really… unless the photoshoot counts? Or the very amateur videos I have sent you and [a mutual friend from Discord].
9. Persephone: Do you friends and family know about the work that you do? How do you talk about it with other people who aren’t sex workers; i.e., how do you communicate sex worker rights to non sex workers?
Victoria: Only one person in my immediate life knows, my older sister, and her response was, “Oh, ok.” And my best friend because I wanted to during the course of friendship. Also a few co-workers know—mainly because I felt they needed some education on the matter (as a few of them are older or made a joke about them throwing in the towel at work and “just becoming a hooker”). So the way I talk about it is saying there needs to be more protection and safety in that line of work (and that it isn’t as easy as they think and more involved than just having sex). It has caused a few to not talk with me because of it, but that is on them. I think it helped me become a better person, one who can understand what others have to go through to survive; i.e., in a world where everything is so expensive that you end up having to have a side hustle (that the govt doesn’t know about) just to keep your head above water. I’m one of the lucky ones who has a job that gives me enough to live simply. I definitely get some judgement from others who do know and they think they can hurt me by calling me slut or whore or words like that. I just blink, then say back, “So what?” Really takes the wind out of their sails*.
*It really does! I’ve had people call me out for being gay or “liking cock” or whatever. And I’m always like, “My dude, it’s only plastered all over my website and name going hand-in-hand!” Nazis think exposing that shit is the end of the world for someone (major projection, on their part). In truth, if its already out there—i.e., there being nothing to expose—then they don’t really know how to act! —Perse
10. Persephone: What are your thoughts on TERFs in sex work; i.e., those who devalue GNC minorities (and other marginalized groups) in the same profession?
Victoria: Ah them, the ones that think that we are wrong or false advertising ourselves; i.e., in a profession that lets us use the talents and the bodies we have or have modified to become ourselves? I didn’t come across any when I was active but that was before I knew there was a term for them. I have had to deal with a few at work over the years, and who only got louder the more you ignore them and shut them down to them eventually leaving/getting themselves fired because they wouldn’t work with most of the department: 1 FtM, 3 pan, 2 bi, 1 old gay and 2 butch lesbians (one of which was the 2iC night fill). Basically they’d quit over dumb anti-trans and anti-rainbow stuff (it’s amazing how you can’t gain traction when you’re stuck in the mud)!
11. Persephone: How do you feel about billionaires? Israel and Palestine?
Victoria: I feel that billionaires are not needed and that they should be taxed HEAVILY. There is no need for an individual to have that much money when it could be used to further and solve most of Humanity’s problems and fix things for the better of all—not used to control the world or waste it on rockets (and other useless crap). Pay your workers a living wage! Use the money and influence to upgrade healthcare and education! Create jobs that people can be happy going to! And fund some housing for those that need it! You are becoming irrelevant and hated by the masses (take old Elongated Muskrat, for example: Tesla and Starlink getting boycotted and contracts getting cancelled, earning him the Guinness world record for fastest drop in wealth ever)!
I’ll admit, I don’t know much about Israel and Palestine—other than Israel is pulling some shady shit; i.e., laying siege to areas and bombing civilians and counting them as “combatants” to justify what they are doing and trying to genocide Palestinians (I’m ashamed that I haven’t been keeping up with this conflict and, because I know it is important, that I should have done better. Um really bad at other countries and what they are going through; I just know that Israel is massively in the wrong, here).
12a. Persephone: What are some of your favorite GNC pieces of media (e.g., I love Sense8 and Heartbreak High)? Do you have any GNC role models?
Victoria: That one I haven’t really thought about after hiding in the closest for so long. I could think of Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss characters such as Angel Dust (HH) and Stolas (HB). I know it isn’t a great example using them, save that reasons I empathize with them on a personal level* (especially Angel Dust).
*It’s not unknown for queer people—especially from the ’90s or before—to relate to forms of queerness that are more tortured or self-hating (e.g., the xenomorph, or Doctor Frankenfurter from Rocky Horror). —Perse
12b. Persephone: To that, GNC people often find their families outside of their birth families; did you have to go elsewhere for that, or is your family relatively understanding of your queerness?
Victoria: Yes, I went elsewhere for that and have ended up with multiple “mothers” because of it. I only came out to my family 4 years ago and the reaction was a non-reaction from my dad and older sister (the equivalent of a shrug)—with Dad saying, “You could have told me 17 years ago, when you were 13; my best friend for the last 40 years is gay.” My mum and younger siblings were like, “that is cool thanks for telling us.” My mum is supportive and learning as she goes; i.e., she has a lot of God-thumping to get out of her head before she understands some things, but she was generally good with me being out and she is proud of me.
My older brother, on the other hand, is the only family I have in this town. Basically 4 months of not talking to me (during which I had a friend who used to call me “big brother” hang herself in a local park 3 days before Christmas that sent me into a spiral that could have ended me): my messages left on read, and whenever I tried going to his place to talk to him he would get in his car and just drive off.
After a while he said, “hey we need to talk” and started off by saying, “I can accept you for who you are… if you never discuss that part of your life to me. I’m also not happy with you for changing your name and throwing away the family last name.” My response was, “I wasn’t going to discuss that part of my life anyway and I hope one day you will listen to why I changed my name.”
Fast-forward—i.e., through 4 years of rebuilding the relationship slowly and him having time to think and talk with people and hearing the locals talking about what I have done for some of their kids and them and how much of a decent bloke I am and how he should be proud of me—and we have patched things up and have brought a house together.
13. Persephone: What about sex workers? Do you have anyone you look up to in particular?
Victoria: Not really. The two I have are you and Bay. Even though I haven’t talked to him about it, I’m proud of what he is doing despite our government making things harder for him. As time goes on, I’m proud of all you do and I love you for it.
14. Persephone: There’s often a strong theatrical component to sex work and BDSM; i.e., costumes, gender roles, aesthetics of power and death, music, makeup. How do these things intersect for you, and do they cross over into real life for you? For example, do you find yourself wearing similar clothing and expressing yourself sex-positively when you’re not on the clock?
Victoria: Well, considering that I have been off the clock for the last 14 years… Yes, I do when I get the space; i.e., to mainly shift how I’m feeling as a guy to feeling more feminine and sex-positive—in the sense that I’m better as a woman and, my god, do I feel things as one! It is a sensory shift, as well wanting to do something I haven’t before—to push my own limits of what I can do! So many ideas and scenarios I wish would happen; i.e., if only I could have tapped into this when I was younger, then I could have made a killing! And “theatrical” is a good way to define the shift from Vin into Vicky (as I want to perform for someone else and have someone see me for who I could have been). Sometimes if it isn’t too hot, I will wear a crop top under my normal shirt at work just to keep a little of Vicky in my normal day. I know it sounds kind of stupid but she is the decisive one who gets shit done; Vic is more reserved and the customer-service-type person* (I try to not use my real voice much—very deep and kind of sounds like TFS Hellsing Abridged Alucard).
*Service workers are certainly expected to have higher-pitched voices—meaning more feminine and subservient, deferring to historically male and/or at-least-wealthy and certainly privileged clients (acting high-and-mighty even if they’re just middle-class assholes standing in line for a cheeseburger and punching down at fast food workers. They still want to be king for day). —Perse
15. Persephone: There’s often an animal component to sexuality and gender expression, helping workers establish close bonds with each other and nature; i.e., furries, but also therians and various kinks; e.g., puppy play. How do you feel about these things, be they for work, pleasure, or both?
Victoria: I have looked into that side of it and can see the appeal of it for people; and everyone is entitled to whatever helps them. I could enjoy aspects of those things with someone I can trust to take care of me because I’m such a pleaser to my partner and can lose myself and push myself past feeling safe just to prove that I can; i.e., in the pursuit of doing a good job and the desire to feel something strongly enough to feel alive. It would probably be a bad idea to get me into any animalistic feeling as the desire to sink my teeth into my partner while doing it is STRONG (and yes, I feel it would be for pleasure). I genuinely want to have a bond with someone that can handle the stronger aspects of me.
16. Persephone: Sex workers are generally treated as monsters to harm and exploit under capital. Do you have a preferred way of expressing the humanity of sex workers, be that simply stating it or through the work that you do, art, or some combination, etc?
Victoria: We are human like the rest of you; we have just figured out how to provide a service that most people take for granted in their relationships (some of my clients were not getting it from their partners so they had me, instead). I see us as an image of succubae/incubi, but crossed with nurses for the body and with a soul concerned with the care of Humanity. I tell people who ask what it is like that it feels like a normal job and has some of the same aspects as one—only that it feels more like a nightshift job (and that you try and sleep during the day).
17. Persephone: Do you have a particular aspect of liberation you like to focus on; e.g., fat liberation or decriminalizing sex work? To that, what’s the difference between positive thinking and liberation in your eyes?
Victoria: The liberation I think I focus on is when I can see and help someone become themselves instead of what they think people want to see; e.g., watching some of the youth group Rainbow teens clicking on to the fact that it is what they are and not their entire persona and that it is far less effort to be themselves and not what their friends want them to look like and act. Helping people get over the hump of “but what if others don’t like me for me?” Let them! It isn’t on you to make people like you; they either do or don’t so enjoy the ones who do and just walk past the ones that don’t!
18a. Persephone: How do you feel about BDSM and using calculated risk to confront and heal from trauma? I.e., using collars or whips to experience pain or control as pleasurable, not harmful (I love collars, for instance).
Victoria: I think it is a fantastic way to heal from trauma; i.e., it reteaches trust in others giving up or taking control again. After what happened to me when I was 13
I was at a sleepover party with my first boyfriend and one of his friends and they spiked my drink gradually till I had to go to bed. I passed out only to wake up tied spread eagle on my front with my boyfriend in my throat and the friend in my ass. They proceeded to rape me multiple times, switching back and forth and then leaving me there till the next afternoon. And when I got untied, my boyfriend told not to tell anyone; otherwise he would tell the whole school I was gay. This was back in 2004 when it was very much still not good to be out.
I wasn’t able to wear a watch or have my shirt cuffs or socks put too much pressure on my wrists and ankles for years, afterwards; i.e., without having panic attacks. Then I learned about self bondage and started looking into BDSM related stuff. Through it, I learned to turn the trauma into something that was calming to me and fun and pleasurable. So sometimes if I have had a rough day I tie myself up to get some relaxing sleep or to decompress for a while; i.e., the loss of control created by yourself (or a trusted partner) feels amazing and im really happy I have found a way to reshape my trauma. I would suggest it to others who need help healing, too.
You’re really brave for talking about that. I was raped, myself, but the specifics of mine involve total financial control and isolation during Covid (emotional and fiscal manipulation, coercing sex and other forms of labor out of me). Even so, from one victim to another, everyone’s trauma is valid and needs to be heard. So often, rape victims are blamed and/or fetishized for their abuse; e.g., white straight women are “turned” into sluts/vampire ladies of the night after being abused, but despite often being pimped for it are also prioritized in Gothic media over other rape survivors. It’s important for rape victims to feel comfortable being able to speak out about such things; i.e., without shame or bias inside but also outside themselves. —Perse
18b. Persephone: Was there ever a moment where you were on the fence about BDSM or sex work/in the closet, but something happened that changed everything? I.e., was it gradual or more a singular event that motivated you to change; or, were you always kind of out (for me, I decided to change after several bad exes, but also watching Stranger Things, and relating to Max’s brush with Vecna in a GNC way)?
Victoria: I can’t remember what it was that came first, the movie Underworld (where I fell in love with Selene and her latex outfit) or my first girlfriend at 16 who was the same height and skinniness as me. She had amazing style who, when I stayed over, would have me be a mannequin/model for her outfit ideas, and give me a makeover. Then she introduced me to BDSM, tying me up while I was wearing her clothes—not to embarrass me but so she could admire her work (I have a lot to thank her for). She helped me feel more right in myself—something that would take another 14 years to figure out once I had my own space to explore more things.
19. Persephone: Does expressing yourself in a dehumanized BDSM position (e.g., CNC or living latex, etc) or state of existence speak to your humanity as something to value?
Victoria: Latex has become a massive love of mine over the last few years—from the shine and feel of it, to the fact that it hides but shows everything at the same time, and that with a hood or mask all personality and the person underneath just disappears; i.e., in a world where everyone looks at you, being hidden and a faceless drone in a sense feels amazing and is really freeing. I would love to have a partner to make some content; i.e., using me as a focus. Such exhibition would be a dream for me—not being seen as human but instead as something else entirely would, for me, be the most human thing in a weird way.
20. Persephone: What got you interested in BDSM? Do you have a preference in terms of what you give or receive?
Victoria: Again, my first girlfriend introduced me to it and I found it fun and calming; re: not having control but trusting the other person, and figuring out it was helping with trauma, too. I would give whatever I could, but would rather be the subject/sub; i.e., of what they wanted to do and I would be focusing on all the feelings and trying to do my best for them just to make sure they were happy and pleased with me.
The service top in me sympathizes. —Perse
21. Persephone: In your mind, is BDSM inherently sexual? If so or if not, can you explain why?
Victoria: I would say “both” as aspects of it are by themselves not sexual; e.g., latex clothing being used for the gentle pressure/compression to relieve anxiety and panic attacks and for the look being unique (or an eternity collar/ring being used as the equivalent of a wedding ring). But yes, it can also be seen as sexual because it fires something in your brain attached to desire or the fear/interest reaction of “this looks like I could be in danger but what if I’m not?” I don’t know how to explain properly*. I used to have a co-worker who wore one hand cuff on her wrist from a broken pair to symbolize her having gotten away and left an abusive ex who made her feel trapped, not a sexual thing but a physical item to help her remember how far she had come.
*The sensation/exercise is generally referred to as “calculated risk” or “informed consent”; i.e., the act of feeling out of control while being in control, in the scenario being performed, to account for a lack of control in our daily lives (generally due to criminogenic and unequal conditions under Capitalism, I would argue). —Perse
22. Persephone: Does BDSM inform the sex work that you do in an educational or therapeutic way?
Victoria: Both because it is a teaching and learning tool; i.e., to know your partner better that also sparks conversations about it (and can lead to a better bond than others can usually get with normal “vanilla,” “in, out and roll over and go to sleep” types of partnerships). BDSM teaches limits and how to give and take and how to trust each other. And it can be used as a therapeutic aid to give someone the space to push past or let emotion out in a way they wouldn’t have been able to normally.
23. Persephone: In terms of calculated risk, how does it feel to surrender some degree of power in a scenario where you can’t actually be harmed? Or vice versa, if you have more power? Do you have a preference and if so, why?
Victoria: It feels amazing and can make you feel detached and like you are floating, going into subspace. The drop into it is a little scary but freeing and the feeling of trust for the one controlling the scene is the closest I have felt to true love in my mind. I prefer to give control to my partner so I can just relax let my mind go blank and obey—to give what is needed of me to help them be happy. I have no desire to stand above another as that is not something I think I need.
24. Persephone: If you feel comfortable answering, can theatrical disempowerment feel healing or therapeutic to you in regards to real trauma?
Victoria: Yes, it would help me immensely if I was to recreate the event from my past in a controlled environment/scene; i.e., with someone I trust to turn it into something good—not being in control, per se, but knowing I have some say in what is happening this time would, I think, be massive and healing.
25. Persephone: What’s the most stressful thing about sex work? The most liberating?
Victoria: Most stressful was maintaining focus and staying to the standard I had set; i.e., performing in a way that satisfied my clients and not letting them down because they were paying for a service and I wanted to deliver properly*. It also feels stressful from hoping that I made enough at the end of the week and to also try and give myself the time to rest and recover. The most liberating thing was being my own boss—I guess knowing that it was all on me, whatever or whoever the job or client was, and that I was using my body in a way that served people.
*One sympathizes; re; service top. Also, service (to one you enjoy working with) can feel incredibly good, as a dom and/or sub (for all you switches out there). —Perse
26. Persephone: What are the benefits to doing sex work in today’s day an age versus in the past? What do you think needs to improve; e.g., open reactionary bigots versus moderate SWERFs posturing as feminists speaking for all groups?
Victoria: Better in some ways; e.g., greater access to testing and treatment of viruses more awareness around the job, and thanks to sites like OnlyFans taking steps towards normalizing it. In the past, it was very hush-hush and frowned upon and, as a guy doing it, laughed at sometimes—all thanks to SWERFs and feminist views not much has changed; e.g., female workers are empowered girlbosses fighting against the patriarchy and male workers are predators and rapists or just trying to add to their conquest count! Or the men are there to be used by vengeful women; i.e., past them saying “stop” so you—the female avenger—can reclaim your power by not stopping so he knows what it is like to feel powerless and afraid [the TERF equivalent to Man Box thinking and revenge arguments punching down].
27a. Persephone: What are your favorite monsters (i.e., undead, demons, and or anthromorphs) and why?
Victoria: Vampires, because they have the ability to fly freely as long as it is night, and because they are sometimes portrayed as warriors against the humans who don’t understand them and as romantics. Also lycanthropes, as they can transform into a beast and can roam in that form without being recognized as their human self (and they have power where the human form might not have). And I love demons and the concept of upon entering Hell you get given the form that will suit you best down there.
27b. Persephone: Media-wise, do you like to read, watch movies, and or play videogames just for fun, but also to gather ideas about gender-non-conformity expression, BDSM and other sex-positive devices?
Victoria: I’m an RPG console gamer raised on Final Fantasy and other High Fantasy RPG games; i.e., someone who loves the games where you can have a custom character. I gravitate towards making a female-presenting character, as that feels more comfortable for me to play as one (and the outfits you can get in some of those games—holy hell, I wish I could go into the game and be my character). I love watching movies, too; i.e., anything that has a coherent story and plot mostly crime/con movies, as I like figuring things out. My comfort series is Supernatural, where things aren’t so black-and-white—with monsters and that family isn’t always blood, they are the ones you find and survive with. I do gain some inspiration from the media I consume for non-conforming outfits, and in scenarios based off of some of the characters (re: Angel Dust).
28. Persephone: What are your thoughts on sex/porn and art, business and pleasure? I like to mix them to form healthier boundaries established between workers; how do you feel about this?
Victoria: I agree sex/porn can be art (as a different form versus art independent of sex) and need to be normalized; i.e., so that there is understanding that it isn’t bad/something to be hidden/ashamed about. And sex/porn is business, as it is something created to generate money/profit in most cases or as a means of survival; i.e., just as an artist creates something then sells it, it is the same for sex work/porn: something created and then consumed by people. It is necessary for people to consume art in its varied forms, as it is something that causes pleasure.
30. Persephone: Can you describe your own struggles with achieving liberation/humanization as a GNC sex worker?
Victoria: I didn’t struggle with being a sex worker at that time; it was a means to an end. The struggle came later over the next few years; i.e., from feeling dirty and like I had done something wrong (as no one knew that I had done it and it was my secret). It was after having got my PTSD label that I realized I was GNC and that what I had done wasn’t wrong and that I had done something that most people would never have the courage to do and that if I had this knowledge and freedom of who I was back then, I would have been way better at it and could have had fun with it!
31. Persephone: I view sex work as an important means of de facto (extracurricular) education; i.e., entertainment, but also a means of humanizing people within the practice at large. How do you feel about this? Can we learn from art and porn as a means of humanizing marginalized groups?
Victoria: We can learn from anything and yes, it is an important means of education; it taught me about what I could do with my body and my view of Humanity as a whole, and being a worker is one of the most humanizing and humbling things. Learning from porn and art is useful and needed as it teaches us about what people want truly in this world and that they would love better access to. So we could add new things/services to what we sex workers do so people can see it and live it instead of just watching it through a screen and, in doing so, would help humanize it as it is; i.e., something people get to feel for themselves and learn about and would see the workers as human. This includes the ones who are GNC being able to do more than the conforming ones, as they are more in touch with themselves and what they are capable of.
32. Persephone: I value establishing mutual trust, healthy communication and boundary formation/negotiation and respect, seeing them to be the most vital qualities in any relationship. Do you agree, and if so, why?
Victoria: I agree, it is vital to earn respect and have trust in your partner. Open communication with your partner is so important; i.e., for safety reasons so you both don’t get hurt physically/mentally and so there are no misunderstandings or boundaries crossed that makes one or both feel betrayed. If there is no communication, there can be no trust; if there is no trust, there can be no respect or relationship going forward—not until things get talked about and put in place for safeties so no one gets hurt/injured. As someone who ended up in a one-way relationship—and having to break it off because there was respect and care only going one way—I had to get out to keep my soul intact.
33. Persephone: How do you orient and what are your thoughts on polyamory insofar as it affects your work? For the layperson/uninitiated, how would you describe the difference between a fuck buddy/FWB and other more casual relationships versus serious ones? Can people be friends and still have sex in a casual manner? What is the most valuable aspect of a friendship regardless if sex is a part of the equation or not?
Victoria: Polyamory is fine as long as it is equal and no one is above another (my experience with it didn’t end well; i.e., I was emotional support whenever they needed it. She was the same for me at first, but then it shifted to all support accommodations for her and none coming my way just getting used for an emotional top-up then told to go away until I was needed again (she also used my deadname as a punishment).
Whereas a fuck buddy is someone who you go around to their place or they to yours have sex then go back home, and is on an as-needed basis, a FWB in my mind is someone you hang out with. Except when it comes to the booty call, then it’s the same as a fuck buddy but: you can stay the night or they can stay at yours have a coffee then carry on (no “ILY”; you keep it professional). If in either of these cases you or they start feeling jealous, then end the contract and return to default, but before doing so have a talk* to see if it is the same feelings for them. But if not, pull the pin and tell them what happened and why. And hope to the gods that you can stay friends (friends can be fuck buddies but in most cases should not do it).
*Good communication is like a contract, and—as I see it as a Communist—isn’t separate from friendship; i.e., you can mix business and pleasure, but as with mixing anything there is to mix, you must be careful and mindful of what you’re mixing and how you go about it. —Perse
34. Persephone: If you have a partner, do they know about the work that you do? How comfortable are they with it?
Victoria: I don’t currently have a partner but my last one wanted me to get tested at the local clinic (where I passed with flying colors), and then asked me a whole bunch of questions; then, she kept bringing it up and told all her other poly partners and friends about me even though I asked her not to. Her response was, “But I was proud of you and it is interesting!”
35. Persephone: What do you think makes an ideal partner?
Victoria: An ideal partner is one that you can trust to talk things out when they and you are upset; i.e., a person who understands that we are both adults, meaning with our own lives and journeys, thus entitled to our support people and systems: a person who I can come home to or them to me who will curl up on the couch together at the end of the day and watch something to relax and decompress. It is a person who is fun in the bedroom while not always it being about sex but instead creating an experience that we can both enjoy and that we both get something out of—a person I can trust with my body knowing that they won’t harm me just because they could when I give them control. It is someone who a) understands gentle touch for a person who has become used to constant pain and hurt through life, and b) a person who I can care for who feels comfortable to take the mask for which the world sees off and just be themselves.
36. Persephone: What advice would you give incels, nice guys and other cis-het men (or token groups; e.g., TERFs and cis-queer tokens, etc) displaying bigoted attitudes towards women and other marginalized groups?
Victoria: To those people I would say this: Evolve, become better as a person, leave people alone; life is hard enough without you adding to it. Leave the women and others alone; until you can love who you are, they won’t love you back. Stop hanging around in her friend group in the hope that she will notice you; i.e., she already has and that is why she has put you where you are: as either for support or as someone she can use to get something she wants. Just ask her what you are to her confess your feelings/truth to see if there is anything and if not, then accept it and either remain her friend or leave before it turns into something bad and you cause harm to her or yourself. You will find your place one day. Leave the other groups alone and reflect on why they bother you. Was it an experience that you had or were taught growing up? Is it pressure from your friends/family? Have you actually sat down with a member and listened to what they are saying? Or is it jealousy/envy that they are living their truth and you aren’t?
37. Persephone: Likewise, what advice would you give to more privileged groups that need to understand the value of listening to those more oppressed than them in a larger struggle for liberation?
Victoria: Listen! Dear gods, listen to them! They are asking for help/protection or something you could provide them and you don’t have to lord it over them if you do. If you are part of a well-known influential group, see if there is a way you can include a marginalized person or give a shoutout to the group to make people aware of them in a positive light. Sometimes all it takes is a few people standing up for others to help out and get the “lesser” groups/people noticed and seen. Stand with them if you can (ape together strong, ape apart weak).
38. Persephone: What are your thoughts on GNC people who are still in the closet but thinking about coming out? Where should they go and who should they talk to?
Victoria: Do it if it is safe to, even if it is a step parent. I got lucky with my stepmum, asking her how I would go about telling my dad and I almost went deaf with her positive reaction and love (she used to work in one of the larger gay/drag clubs in Sydney). Since then, she has been one of my larger supporters on that side of the family. All it takes is one person. Start off small, if you want—slowly changing clothes to add color/prints get your hair cut by the colorful/alt one at a hairdresser’s (they understand more and will do what you ask for, not what they think you need). Or grow your hair out.
As for whom to go to/organizations, I would recommend going to your local youth hub/trust, as they help all ages or know of people or groups that you could join or talk to. For mine, their code of ethics is fantastic they were the ones that helped me realize it was time to come out to my family after 30 years; and while there was a rocky start with a few members*, it ultimately worked out.
*I would add that, natural families aren’t owed your love; i.e., if someone is being abusive towards you, there’s absolutely zero shame in going no contact (abusers will try to argue against this; re: DARVO). For a good channel about this kind of cycle of abuse, I recommend Theremin Trees; e.g., “Letting Go of Fixing People” (2020). —Perse
39. Persephone: Similarly, for those thinking about doing sex work for the first time, where is a good place to start with that; i.e., what advice would you give to those starting out based on your own experiences?
Victoria: Have a safe place you can operate out of. Get a camera that gets faces on the way into your “office.” Look at ids and write the name down if you can. Use protection let someone know you are going somewhere if you have to go to a clients place. Get regular tests at the clinic and take note of any changes to your health. Get a PayPal or some form of payment app that handles transactions safely. Do yoga to remain flexible/ease tired muscles and allow yourself time to rest and recharge and take care of yourself.
40a1. Persephone: What’s your idea of the perfect date? The ideal fuck? Do you have an ideal experience of either you’d like to share?
Victoria: My ideal date would just be meeting up and getting takeout food and going for a wander around town or go sit by the water and just talk, learn a bit about each other and hopefully end up back at one of our places for the night (no pressure of sex or doing anything but the opportunity of it happening also). I know it’s a bit plain, but getting to know and trust someone takes time.
40a2. Persephone: What’s your wildest/most enjoyable sexual encounter (e.g., sex in public, in the kitchen while the roomies are home, etc)?
Victoria: My most enjoyable time was when I was around at my first girlfriend’s place and she had me in her clothes and heels (she had an amazing collection of boots); i.e., with me tied at the end of the bed kneeling with my arms tied behind me on top of the bed (a kneeling-strappado-type thing). While standing in front of me with me giving her oral, she suddenly gets a message that her parents are going to be home for dinner in 5 minutes! So she grabs the arm rope and pulls me into her wardrobe, ties the arm rope to the clothes rail inside—high enough to bend me over ties my ankles together while in 6-inch boots—pushes her panties into my mouth then tapes it closed and says, “Try to not make any noise; I’ll let you out once they go to bed!” Resulting in the most amazing 4 hours tied like that till she came back, when she did she untied my legs and undid the arm rope from the rail. Then she pulled me over to her bed, pushed me down, tied my legs apart, and then proceeded to ride me quietly till she was done then curled up next to me and fell asleep (god, I miss her).
40b. Persephone: For you, what’s the cutest thing a partner can do, in bed or out? For example, my partner Bay loves it when new partners come really fast/are having their first time PIV with Bay. Consent, intimacy and affection are all really sexy and fun for Bay. How about you?
Victoria: Simple affection and touch is the cutest thing my partner could do; i.e., just being in the same room doing different things or them speaking passionately about one of their interests would be amazing. Just the little things, like them finding a cool rock or stick on a walk and giving it to me (I’m a bit basic, in that regard).
40c. Persephone: What are your thoughts on consensual voyeurism and exhibitionism as educational/entertaining acts? Does being able to be more open and communicative help us learn from each other to see each other as human and also what to watch out for/what to challenge at a systemic level?
Victoria: I agree that it humanizes people, and gaining knowledge/awareness through exhibitionism—it makes people think with the subject; i.e., of thought, right there in front of them, watching and seeing everything that is going on and possibly getting involved with the display going on: to have a chance to learn something new to them and learn how to do things properly to avoid problems if they end up doing it at some stage, or the possibility of volunteering/being chosen to be the subject so you can feel what it is like. All of that feels truly human.
41a. Persephone: Does fucking to music, roleplay and other theatrical elements make sex better?
Victoria: Fucking and play is a performance in itself, so of course having a soundtrack or theme would enhance the experience for all parties (as long as you both agree on the song/music). It goes towards setting the mood and creating a space for the event/performance that takes it to a whole new level of enjoyment (also if there was no background music I wouldn’t be able to focus properly).
42. Persephone: If you have any ace leanings, would you like to talk about that in relation to the work that you do?
Victoria: Being ace made the work interesting and mechanical and caused me to act on opposition to my true feelings or lack thereof. Like, I’m not sex abhorrent or sex avoidant but more… sex indifferent? Like, I can live without it and it doesn’t consume me in my life or work nowadays. It’s like, I would rather my body be used as directed by others for their pleasure rather than mine; i.e., like a fuck doll, so to speak. Yet I’m so far out of the game that stuff just confuses me and I need to be led to help them get what they need.
Being Ace also changes my perception of people. Like, being male and female does not change how I interact with people and how I talk to them, so co-workers and bosses have shipped me with multiple people over the years and are baffled as to how, as a guy, I can just talk to women and have a friendship with them. It’s not hard. Just treat them the same as you would a male person [who has privilege] and don’t say anything creepy or talk about your junk!? I think my secret is I’m sometimes asking women for outfit advice and or helping with theirs (gay bestie vibes, lol).
43. Persephone: Connections between sex workers and clients is often discrete under capital. Can a degree of friendship and intimacy make for a better relationship between the two?
Victoria: Yes and no. With repeat client, you can build something with them in a professional sense; i.e., that makes things feel more comfortable as you learn their likes/dislikes to cater better to their needs. And sometimes when you are no longer a client and provider, there is the possibility for friendship or casual acquaintance, insofar as they become someone you keep in touch with (clients seeing me at my low-hours job and saying hello). But it can also turn into something worse.
For example, when I stopped doing sex work, one of my regulars became angry that I had abandoned him and he would follow me down the street from my house—yelling at me from his car as I walked to work and then ending up so angry/hurt that he waited for me one night after me walking a co-worker home. Then when I was alone, he grabbed me from a side alley and proceeded to rape me for one last freebie because he felt I owed him that. He died of a heart attack* a few months later.
So yes you can become familiar with clients, but be careful in my experience!
*Good riddance! —Perse
44. Persephone: For people struggling with gender expectations like being the right size or pleasing one’s partner and enjoying oneself, is there anything you might recommend?
Victoria: For being the right size, nobody is ever perfect, but they do make sleeves that extend your reach and gives you pleasure at the same time. And as for pleasing one’s partner and enjoying yourself, talk with your partner about your worries and how you two (or more/with others) can help out with that; i.e., and find something that will work for you to make it fun and pleasurable. Life and intimacy is a journey and a learning experience, always, so you never know it all; i.e., as new things/scenes are getting created all the time, your tastes and moods/moves change over time and that is ok! Just keep up communication with your partner as that is important for growth and contentment/happiness! And as for expectations about your body, the thing you may dislike about yourself may well be one of the things your partner may love about you/turns them on (people liking my thicc thighs and ass for example*, while they make it hard to find work pants that fit).
*Your thighs and booty are a godsend, cutie. —Perse
45. Persephone: How does it feel being your true self, despite the risks of gay panic and similar moral panics in America and around the world?
Victoria: It took a long time to come out then find out who I really was after masking for over 20 years; i.e., out of fear of what people would think, then the next few years of giving myself space to dress up to feel new things/get feedback from those who I found supported me, then experimenting with toys and restraints to heal from past trauma, and then meeting people who support me in the kinkier side of my personality, and then a further year to finally hit the “fuck it, I’ll dress how I want and do what I want with this vessel I am lumbered with and make the best of it” phase. Life is short, so be who or what you want to be and all the haters that you will encounter mean nothing if you are doing it for yourself. I believe that whoever you want to be will undoubtedly be amazing and people will love you for it!
46. Persephone: Is there anything else you’d like to say or add before we conclude?
Victoria: I just want to say thank you for the opportunity to have this interview and answer these questions! It has been amazing and lovely getting to know you over this last year! Your work is fantastic and important to everyone who is a part of it and who reads it! I’m sorry if I missed the point on some of the questions; I’m not as smart as you, but more “elemental” when feeling about things.
47. Persephone: Aw, you did fine! Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions; and also, for working on Sex Positivity with me! If people want to follow you, where can they follow you and support what you do?
Victoria: My links are:
Twitter/X: @Vin_Necessary
Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/victim-victorious.bsky.social
About the Author
Persephone van der Waard is the author of the multi-volume, non-profit book series, Sex Positivity—its art director, sole invigilator, illustrator and primary editor (the other co-writer/co-editor being Bay Ryan). Persephone has her independent PhD in Gothic poetics and ludo-Gothic BDSM (focusing on partially on Metroidvania), and is a MtF trans woman, anti-fascist, atheist/Satanist, poly/pan kinkster, erotic artist/pornographer and anarcho-Communist with two partners. Including multiple playmates/friends and collaborators, Persephone and her many muses work/play together on Sex Positivity and on her artwork at large as a sex-positive force. That being said, she still occasionally writes reviews, Gothic analyses, and interviews for fun on her old blog (and makes YouTube videos talking about politics). To learn more about Persephone’s academic/activist work and larger portfolio, go to her About the Author page. To purchase illustrated or written material from Persephone (thus support the work she does), please refer to her commissions page for more information. Any money Persephone earns through commissions goes towards helping sex workers through the Sex Positivity project; i.e., by paying costs and funding shoots, therefore raising awareness. Likewise, Persephone accepts donations for the project, which you can send directly to her PayPal, Ko-Fi, Patreon or CashApp. Every bit helps!
